INTERVIEW WITH CAMPBELL

AN INTERVIEW WITH ALEXANDER CAMPBELL.

Some of this is based on an article by Bobby Valentine in "Stoned-Campbell" blog.

"In the Twilight Years of Alexander Campbell he lectured and preached extensively to the Bethany College community. By this time Alexander Campbell was a saintly old gentleman and a seasoned reflective student of Scripture. For those who know only Campbell's "Sermon on the Law" might be surprised a large chunk of his hermeneutical enterprise was focused on the Pentateuch. In 1859 and 1860 his lectures were recorded and later published after the Civil War by W. T. Moore as Familiar Lectures on the Pentateuch. Also recorded in this same period were extensive extracts from his sermons. What follows is an imaginary interview with the old Reformer ... I will refer to quotations by Extract numbers as printed in Familiar Lectures." BV

“If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear." Then He said to them, "Take heed what you hear. With the same measure you use, it will be measured to you; and to you who hear, more will be given.” Mark 4:23-24

We carefully follow the Bible. Yet we read through the magnifying glass of Campbell’s thoughts in many instances. He was a revered teacher. We are in no way Campbellites - we are Christians only, following Jesus.

“My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment.” James 3:1 Teachers are needed and many set up as teachers. But as ambassadors of God they will be held to a strict standard. God gives to some great ability, as He did to Timothy, Titus, and many others in the first century and in every century since then. A. Campbell was such a gifted one.

If time travel were an option, an interview with Campbell might sound something like the following imaginary interview.

AN INTERVIEW BETWEEN A. CAMPBELL AND THE CHRISTIAN LEDGER.

LEDGER: Elder Campbell, we have come back to this year of 1860 to learn firsthand of your thoughts of the reformation you have led. Others of course played important roles, including your father, Thomas Campbell, Barton W. Stone, Walter Scott, Raccoon John Smith. But you seem to have emerged as the spokesman early on. Your printing press turned out many volumes which survive to our day.

CAMPBELL: A man can only do what God gives him. God Himself works through people. I suppose zeal has burned within me as a fire. From my younger days I have tried to promote unity among those who consider themselves to be God's People. Surely God blessed me in this endeavor and provided means beyond my expectation. A 3,000 acre farm, a good wife, actually two good wives, since my first died. And I have had very good people working with me. God granted me great prosperity. I have used this prosperity to strive to promote the great cause of God. It has enabled me to do things which would otherwise have been impossible.

LEDGER: You speak of reformation, but some in our day say restoration.

CAMPBELL: In answering the lady from Lunenburg County, I noted that the promise that the gates of hades could not prevail against Christ’s church was immutable. And so I often spoke of the continuing reformation. It would be impossible to restore that which is in continuous existence.

LEDGER: Perhaps refurbish would be a good word. A line from the Last Will And Testament Of The Springfield Presbytery. Imprimis. We will that this body die, be dissolved, and sink into union with the Body of Christ at large: for there is but one body and one spirit, even as we are called in one hope of our calling.

CAMPBELL As Elder Stone said: Let unity be our polar star. This was my intention also.

LEDGER: Elder Campbell the reformation you promoted has exalted the Bible. Can you share your mature thoughts on that old religious tome?

CAMPBELL "The Bible is a perfect chart for the entire voyage of life. Beyond that it has no value. It is not adapted to [a] man in Heaven or Hell." (# 21). But the "vast deal of Bible reading, in these latter days [is] for the purpose of enabling men to stand erect upon a particular point of faith, peculiar to themselves ... than with obtaining a clear and unbiased understanding and truthful appreciation of the intent and meaning of Holy Writ" (# 9).

LEDGER: You are saying that some use the Bible only for proving a point of their opinion. I remember you saying that you tried to read the Bible each morning as if you had never seen it before.

CAMPBELL I meant by that an unbiased mind. As you would read a newspaper, for example. You read to learn the news and you use the laws of language to understand what you read.

LEDGER: Elder Campbell what kind of book is the Bible?

CAMPBELL: "[T]he Holy Scriptures have every form of expression. We have not only poetry and prose, precepts, promises and threats; but all various forms and usages of human speech ... It is very proper that this should be so. For this book is addressed to man, by Him who alone comprehends him in his relations to his fellow man and to his Creator ... It is worthy of observation, that in the Bible as addressed to man, God does not deal in abstractions." (#11)

LEDGER: Abstractions as defined by Crabb’s English Synonyms. You said the Bible was a book of facts, and that facts are stubborn things. By abstractions you mean those who strive about words to no profit? Jesus said to beware the leaven of the Pharisees.

CAMPBELL: Yes. But the Bible is not a book of abstract ideas, but in a sense living and breathing, such as a letter from a dear friend. The Living Oracles Version words it this way. “...not to fight about words for nothing useful, but to the subverting of the hearers.” Nothing ought to be bound upon Christians as articles of faith, nor required as terms of communion and fellowship, except what is clearly taught and required in the Word of God. Human reasoning and opinion may be valid, but has no authority! But often what is only human reasoning is held to be the authentic word of faith.

LEDGER: Speaking of the Living Oracles, that was a new version which you published?

CAMPBELL: Yes. I wrote in 1826, The Sacred Writings. "But this constant mutation in a living language will probably render new translations, or corrections of old translations, necessary every two or three hundred years. For although the English tongue may have changed less during the last two hundred years than it ever did in the same lapse of time; yet the changes which have taken place since the reign of James I do now render a new translation necessary. For if the King's translators had given a translation every way faithful and correct, in the language then spoken in Britain, the changes in the English language which have since been introduced, would render that translation in many instances incorrect."

LEDGER: What was the basis for your new version?

CAMPBELL: I used a work done in England by George Campbell, James McKnight, Philip Doddridge. I made a few emendations. Immerse for baptism; reform for repent, congregation for church, etc. For example, Matt xvi:18. “I tell you, likewise, you are named Stone; and on this rock I will build my congregation, over which the gates of Hades shall not prevail.” I wrote in the preface to The Living Oracles: In the second Epistle to Corinth, (viii. 1. common version,) Paul says, "WE DO YOU TO WIT of the grace of God bestowed upon the churches of Macedonia". This was, no doubt, a correct and intelligible rendering of the Greek words, GNORIZOMEN DE UMIN, to the people of that day; but to us it is unintelligible as the Greek original. How few are there who can translate "WE DO YOU TO WIT," by WE CAUSE YOU TO KNOW? which is the modern English of the above sentence. The same may be observed of the term "WOT," in all places where it occurs.

LEDGER: The work of James McKnight has still been kept in print in our day. And some of your word choices sound like the Geneva Bible of 1560, which has also been reprinted in our day. Elder Campbell, you reportedly objected to the word Trinity.

CAMPBELL: The word trinity is not a Bible word and I try to speak of Bible things using Bible words. However the idea represented is true. I spoke in The Christian System, Chapter V. of: Jehovah the Father, Jehovah the Son and Jehovah the Holy Spirit. Certainly God is a trinity, even as we affirm in baptizing into the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

LEDGER: But some things you said sounded like Unitarianism. And today there remains a strain of Unitarianism among the churches.

CAMPBELL: Due in part to Dr. John Thomas MD, one of my severest critics. He eventually left to found the Christadelphians. But though I had rejected the word Trinity, I certainly believe its truth. I wrote: “A religion without a Saviour whose pre-existence is beyond doubt, without a high priest, an altar, a victim, a sacrifice, an expiation, an atonement, is no religion for fallen, ruined, guilty man. A religion without a Holy Spirit, different from his gifts and graces; without an advocate, a counselor, and a comforter, is not suited to the genius of human nature, nor to the conditions of our present existence. But a religion which demonstrates alike the justice, the mercy, and the grace of God in gift of his only begotten and well beloved Son, and of his Holy Spirit, which reveals to us a glorious immortality, founded upon the resurrection of the Messiah, and his death as a sin offering, gives glory to God in the highest, establishes peace on earth, and prompts good will to every human being. May the Lord guide us into all truth!

CAMPBELL: Further I wrote in The Christian System: The Bible is a book of facts, not of opinions, theories, abstract generalities, nor of verbal definitions. It is a book of awful [awesome] facts, grand and sublime beyond description. These facts reveal God and man, and contain within them the reasons of all piety and righteousness; or what is commonly called religion and morality.

LEDGER: In our world on October 4th, 2009, we will celebrate the 200th anniversary of your father’s Declaration And Address. There will be a Great Communion among the spiritual heirs of the continuing reformation. This will be to show forth the death of Christ until He Comes, and to demonstrate our union in Him.

CAMPBELL: I wrote of that Declaration And Address in the Preface to The Christian System. “The first piece that was written on the subject of the great position, appeared from the pen of THOMAS CAMPBELL, Senior, in the year 1809. An association was formed that year for the dissemination of the principles of reformation; and the piece alluded to was styled "The Declaration and Address of the Christian Association of Washington, Pennsylvania."

LEDGER: Knofel Staton has written a paraphrase of that document in our language of today. It was, as you said, a very radical document and one which challenged many opinions.

CAMPBELL: It was first tendered to the parties that confessed the Westminster creed; but equally submitted to the Protestants of every name, making faith in Christ and obedience to him the only test of Christian character, and the only bond of church union, communion, and co-operation. It was indeed approved by all; but adopted and practised by none, except the few, or part of the few, who made the overture. None of us who either got up or sustained that project, was then aware of what havoc that said principle, if faithfully applied, would have made of our views and practices on various favorite points.

LEDGER: Elder Campbell, you evidently try to speak to be understood by the common man. How do you phrase your sermons to do this?

CAMPBELL: I wrote in part: Are we to preach this law of nature, then, some will inquire; or Are we to show men that they possess this natural conscience, previous to a proclamation of the glad tidings? I would answer this question by proposing another. Am I to tell a man he has an ear, and explain to him the use of it, before I condescend to speak to him? One answer suits both inquiries. We should consider the circumstances of any people before we address them. Do we address Jews? Let us address them as the Apostles did. Persuade them out of their own law that Jesus is the Messiah. Do we address professed Christians? Let us imitate the apostolic addresses in the epistles. Do we preach to Barbarians? Let us address them as Paul preached to the Lycaonians. Speak to their consciences. Do we preach to polished infidels or idolaters? Let us speak to them as Paul spake to the Athenians. Speak to their consciences. [Lycaonians Acts 14:6-18]

LEDGER: Do you have a favorite part of Scripture or is there any "more important" than other parts?

CAMPBELL: "No man has ever suggested an improvement to the parables of the Saviour ... they are the wisest exhibitions of literature in the world." (# LXXX). However "among the most important ecclesiastical documents are the two oracles, which we sometimes denominate the kernel of Christianity - the Epistles of Paul to the Romans and to the Hebrews. They contain the most comprehensive and complete exposition of all that enters into Christian faith and worship, ever spoken or written." (# LXXXV)

LEDGER: Elder Campbell, in our day Christians have retreated from the physicality of the world. Do you have any mature thoughts on Creation and its destiny?

CAMPBELL: Absolutely! "The principles of creation are: First, goodness, the actuating: Second, wisdom, the directing: third, power, the executive principle" (# 8). The order here is important. "The universe itself is the offspring of God's love. It was not created simply because he had the wisdom and power to do it. The element of love entered into the intention, characterized the execution, and approved the completion of his labors." (# 18). It is all about God who is love!

LEDGER: I understand you have been looking forward to some sort of Golden Age here on earth? You named your paper: The Millennial Harbinger.

CAMPBELL: But perhaps the recent war between the states has dimmed that hope. For a time it seemed we would sweep sectarianism from the world.

LEDGER: Do you see the earth being destroyed at the end of the world?

CAMPBELL: Some have been influenced by the materialism of the Enlightenment and have abandoned biblical teaching. You see “the impression prevails in many minds that the earth is to be annihilated. Such is not our belief. There is a vast difference between annihilation and change ... This earth will unquestionably be burned, yet through the process of variation and reconstruction of its elements, God will fashion the earth and heavens anew, and fill them with tenants to glorify His name forever" (# 13; cf #LXVI).

LEDGER: The victory of the Messiah goes as far as the curse is found. Peter could speak of new heavens and a new earth. One final question Elder Campbell, what kind of God do you worship?

CAMPBELL: "I worship a great God and a little God...He is so large that he fills the universe with his presence, and so small that he dwells in my heart. [A]nd if the love of God fills the heart [of a] man, he must be happy." (# XCVII)

LEDGER: Thank you for the courtesy of the interview Elder Campbell. Your thoughts certainly exhibit years of study and worship. Thank you for sharing them with us ... we will have to reflect on them ourselves.

LEDGER: Campbell in his early years was radical, ready to burn the house down to get rid of the mice. It was Destroy And Be Free! This was reflected in his publication of The Christian Baptist paper. But you cannot build a house with a wrecking bar. Some things were done in haste that were later regretted. A maturing Campbell published the Millennial Harbinger for some years. Perhaps we do need controversy to cause us to rexamine the ground upon which we stand. Campbell spread his influence far and wide. Note Campbell died March 6, 1866. Again, we are not Campbellites, but rather Christians only, followers of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. We have been in the habit of reading Scripture through the magnifying glass of Campbell's thought. Campbell was an inspiration to us, but in some ways he was short sighted. He was rational to a fault in his thinking. Campbell could speak of the Continuing Reformation - in a sense of Reformed And Always Reforming. Each individual who has charisma influences a circle of followers. In the Stone-Campbell movement there was a lot of cross-fertilization, opposition, perhaps extremism and fanaticism in the sense of being overcome by excessive zeal. Yet certainly all the way back to Pentecost this has been the history of the Lord's people. We should look kindly on those of the past and carefully examine ourselves. Jesus said to love God and to love our neighbor.